Ton

Open letter to Geniatech

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I sent this to Geniatech. Feel free to add your comments.

Why? because I believe EyeTV is a good product that should not be ruined and made to abandonware.

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I do not know your relationship with Elgato but 1 thing is certain: your approach towards your customers is just a low as Elgato's was.

 

On the forum there are 10s of complaints about not correct working hardware and software problems. None of  them is addressed. Never a solution is given. There is absolutely no sign of a future plan.

 

Where are you people? What are you doing/ Can we officially declare EyeTV as abandonware? Will there ever be a aTV app? When will EyeTV be able to use the 4 decoders in your own Netstream 4c? Why not implement preset HDHomerun devices?

 

Questions, questions, questions.

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Yes - come on Geniatech! EyeTV is such a good product. Please don't force me to abandon it.... I've liked it for so long and even promoted it to several persons. Now I'm just sad to see this product slide down mu list of favourite applications :(

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Dear Frederik, Dear Ton, Dear all,

thank you for your open words and sorry for some delay, many thanks for your posting(s) and open letter, really appreciate that you are great supporters of eyetvas we are too, and sure we do understand your concerns. This joint passion is very import for us to move and develop eyetv to the next level. Based on the learnings of the last 9 month we upgraded our support teams nearly on a monthly base and we will have dedicated resources for the support of the eyetv forum as well in place soon. We take this as a wake up call. Thanks for this!

Please give us some room, as we setup the additional resources which we need train, teach and educate. In add we will with the team take more attention, please go ahead and raise your question, share concerns, we will take care as best as we can, to your question:

Where are you people?

Geniatech HQ`s Subsidiaries / eyetv team`s are in: Germany (Herzogenrath), China (Shenzhen/Hefei), North America (Indianapolis, Toronto) 

What are you doing/ Can we officially declare EyeTV as abandonware?

No, eyetv is developing, and the leading premium tv platform solution in the Apple Environment. We launched several mayor relases of the eyetv 3 macOS APP worldwide in the last 6 month, with HEVC decoding capabilities, new device support inside, tons of bugfixes, for latest version please check out here (https://www.geniatech.eu/eyetv/software/country-wise in North America just launch new eyetv U6 for macOS (us.geniatech.com), in Europe eyetv T2/DVB-C HD HEVC, eyetv T2 lite HD HEVC for macOS, further in the pipeline for Q1-2017 with full support of realtime transcoding eyetv netream (ATSC Version), new netstream 4sat and many more will be demo and launched at CES 2017.

Will there ever be a aTV app?

Yes, ATV4 - APP - we run this weeks several dedicated country-specific testflights until begin Jan 2017, target launch date is after CES 2017.

When will EyeTV be able to use the 4 decoders in your own Netstream 4c? 

Yes, technically it is possible, but we have mayor concerns about performance issue`s - you might need iCore 7 - 32GB - ... we do some further testing, and come back with the more precise technical requirements, and may asked 5-10 eyetv 4c user to join, and share their experience.

Why not implement preset HDHomerun devices?

all over there are several faq information available with regards the support of HDHomerun products (https://www.geniatech.eu/eyetv/faq/eyetv-3-software-does-not-support-the-hdhomerun-prime-extend-or-expand/ or  https://www.geniatech.eu/eyetv/faq/eyetv-3-software-does-not-support-the-hdhomerun-prime-extend-or-expand/ ,. more for the current preset of HDHomerun devices, give us some time, we are in continuous discussion with third party vendors, we are happy to move it to the next level, more information after CES 2017.

macOS Sierra

We are continuous improve and debug eyetv 3 Mac APP with macOS Sierra, and the majority of the eyetv user are ok, but Apple has made some significant changes, and the bandwidth of the installed base are a wide range of mac hardware and the wide eyetv tuner base are not that young anymore. Latest results we experience some improvements in the latest beta build of macOS Sierra for systems who run into such situations. We keep on improving.

Again, we do apologise for inconvenience we might cause, please do not stop to raise your concerns, push us and have a constructive solution orientated and fruitful discussions here.

kind regards

Mike

 

 

 

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Thanks for the answer at last. I will try to keep it short.

Will there ever be a aTV app?

After CES2017? Very late but let's hope this deadline is met. Advice: buy the product from BgB and improve this. Will cost max. 1 month.

As for the HDHomeRun EXTEND and HDHomeRun EXPAND, EyeTV 3 was never designed to work with those devices, and won’t be updated in the future to support them.

Sorry but there is not a really big technical difference between these products and the older HDHR. Difference is 2 versus 4 tuners. But no matter what. If you keep insisting on not supporting these 2 (very popular!) products than it is really good riddance to EyeTV. Be honest, other products like DVBlink, TVHeadend, MythTV have supported these products from day 1 they were for sale!

but Apple has made some significant changes,

Really sorry but I must say this is 100% nonsense. I have a default iMac 2013 (now Sierra, El Capitan earlier) and at this very moment I am running EyeTV i.c.w. 2 HDHR3-EU + 1 Hybrid and also DVBLink with HDHR3-4DC also a total of 9 decoders! My iMac never uses more than about 30% CPU. On the side I do a lot of video conversion (Handbrake), watch live TV and never ever I have any problem with response or whatever. (PS: I use both software because EyeTV has excellent Scheduling)

So don't blame it on "significant changes". EyeTV is the culprit and it is all caused because Elgato has refused for very many years to do any update on the product even going solar as to not give any customer support at all.

Summary:

So I once again challenge you to make this into a useful competitive product. Download TVHeadend/DVBlink/MythTV (all free) and see what they have and how they do it.

On the Netstream 4C I want to add: this is really something YOU ought to be ashamed of. Selling a product (4 decoders) that does NOT function as sold. Meaning people buy it and have to return it to seller. As long as you are unable to get your own hardware functioning you will not get any credit/believe that you will get other products working.

Advice:

Announce within max. 3 months EyeTV 4 that works with all regular hardware. Invite 25 Beta testers (during those 3 months, not after) and put the product on sale for €/$ 25 for all those having valide license now and 45€/$ for new customers not buying your hardware (free included otherwise).

Do whatever you like but once people have switched then you will have lost them forever. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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great + valid feedback, thanks for this, seems you really a advanced professional.

we might not share the same point of view on some part, but take your challenges serious, we still see the performance issue by encoding / transcoding / and client decoding (play) of H.264 / H.265 channels in real time, and we need to disagree that netstream 4c can not get used of 4 tuners and we do real time hardware transcoding (which the other devices not support at all - you know the advantages, right? and concept wise we see / believe in use case scenarios where mobile as well stationary devices have mixed access to the netstream 4c design, e.g. you can have always 4 different clients e.g. iPhone + iPad, Android Device, Mac or PC connected, alternativ activate 2 tuners on Mac and PC, but last part you want to extend to 4 Tuner Access, which we think is not the normal use case, right? what you think about add Multicast feature, instead of only Unicast? what you think about Clustering n+1 tuner/netstream? again, we take your feedback serious and keep looking into to manage your inquiry.

and sure we have to all this good products access in house and we see values how good they are working, honestly this field is not that green as you share it, your are a advanced professional, know how to deal with certain kind challenges, where might some normal user user need your help to come to such level, 

Anyway we take this serious - great feedback. let us work on this and keep on going the discussion.

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I think it is important to point out that I look at the whole matter from the viewpoint of a regular user as in Mac/consumer. So the use in large professional/commercial environments has not my interest. Also then I would never look at Geniatechs products but would  start using Silicon Dust TECH4-*DT products. Also these are geared toward Windows it is a complete different game. Personally I do not think there is a market for these Tech4 type devices within the Mac community.

On Netstream 4C. Maybe you are not aware how this product is sold. it is sold as an alternative for HDHR and more specifically geared for Mac Users. So people compare this to the HDHR3-4DC. Both have 4 decoders so people expect that EyeTV (specifically mentioned as The Software) will be able to use all 4 decoders. Similar to the way the 4DC's 4 decoders can be used simultaneously. On the Mac side there is no resource problem. The fact that all 4 can be used at the same time if and  when different devices are used has no value. For consumers scheduling of shows is important. How to do that when it has to be done on different devices?

Also I do think that 4-tuner devices are the normal mainstream for consumers. The HDHR3-4DC is a big selling success over here. It cost about the same as the old 2-decoder device which is not even for sale anymore because there is no market for it. Pricewise your Hybrid (1-decoder), 4C, 4DC are all nearly same price. So the choice is easy.

For most consumers all you have to do is lift off the limitations Elgato built in years ago. Limitations in the number of same devices that can be attached (why max. at 2 Hybrids of 2 HDHr's?), the number of decoders per device. Offcourse there is the chance that someone with a 2006 Mini will try to connect 5 Hybrids. But there will always be awkward people. Also solve the apparent Gracenote problem (I don't have it since I use XML for guide info). And last but not least, assign someone to read daily the forum and reply to messages so that people get the feeling they are listened to.

The Elgato forum was a lively forum for many years which many solutions (often by users) for all kind of problem. With a little effort from your side this forum can be made same and that is good for your company.

(you could also hand the specs of 4C to DVBlink and let them incorporate it. Their software is pretty good except for their lousy scheduling)

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Thx Mikyesun for the positive response to the issues in the open letter. I really hope that after CES2017 EyeTV will again be the lead in DVRs for Mac and embracing third party hardware (and fixing the bug on limited tuners in the application). Looking very much forward to following this the coming months!  

 

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There was a time when I didn't have a TV set because I had an Apple 30" Cinema Display with a PowerMac G5 first and an Intel Mac mini afterwards, and an EyeTV Hybrid, an EyeTV Diversity and an EyeTV Netstream DTT. That was my setup and I was really happy with it. But after all the problems with EyeTV 3 software over the years under Elgato brand I finally ditched the setup and bought a TV.

What I would like is new Netstream product that works with DTT (does the 4C work for T/T2?) with 4 decoders or more that has a great AppleTV 4 app for watching channels, EPG and scheduling recordings.The Netstream hardware should have a USB-C/USB 3 port to connect a pen drive or a hard drive so the recordings scheduled on the AppleTV would be saved there and incorporate the option to save in a network share or a NAS. The iOS app would do the same functions and let EyeTV 3/4 on a Mac do the editing, transcoding and sharing.

IMHO there is not much sense in incorporating transcoding in the AppleTV or the iOS and even editing in those devices should be a secondary function that would require transferring/copying the content from the USB attached media on the Netstream or from the network share to the iOS/AppleTV device. This way we could record tons of content in the USB attached media or the network share without filling the iPhone/iPad/AppleTV devices and just transfer to those devices the piece I want to edit and share.

I have read Ton's posts and he suggests many things that are right on the spot, but Geniatech has to decide if they are a software company that creates theirs own hardware, selling the software to be used with other vendors' hardware, or if they are a hardware company that bundles their own software.

In the first case the software would have a more expensive price tag when bought separately but free for those that buy their hardware (including free updates or cheap upgrades with new versions).

In the second case the software would be only for their hardware and would not support third party devices or only those that pay a fee.

A third case would be to ditch their hardware all together and just create a software that supports as many hardware devices as possible and people would buy their hardware anywhere or bundled with EyeTV directly from Geniatech.

So… what is it going to be Geniatech? I loved EyeTV products and I am looking forward to ditch my TV set again, buy a no frills digital screen with only HDMI 2.x ports on it and use an AppleTV 4 and a Netstream product to watch, record and time shift my content.

Edited by Bottacco
typing mistake

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By the way, I used to work at an AppleCenter in Madrid, Spain, and we sold a ton of EyeTV devices, so I know that the product is financially viable if done right and with the things that matter to consumers.

Right now in Spain one of the most sold TV sets is Samsung because they incorporate a software to watch streaming IPTV content from the main content provider in Spain (Telefonica with their Yomvi content, something like a mix of a cable provider package and Netflix) because all other TV sets need a hardware decoder attached via HDMI. Samsung has listened to the market and has just incorporated an app that does it.

But the point is that most people that have Telefonica's Internet/TV package don't own a Samsung and there are plenty of forums over the Internet explaining how to hack the system so any one with a tablet, smartphone or computer can watch the channels over their home network. The process is cumbersome, EPG does not work properly and there are many workarounds that have to be known… so imagine if you have a product that you just connect to your home network and to the cable/aerial antenna and you can watch all DTT T/T2 channels on any device around your house… your children would sure love it.

All statistics say that people watch less TV and they go to Internet for content, but this is because the TV paradigm stinks. People want to watch the content they want when they want… and that means time shifting. Statistics say that kids don't watch TV, but the truth is that adolescents do watch it but they don't want to watch it with their parents all the time and the end up going to their rooms with their iPad or iPhone to watch what they can find on the internet. At a friend's house I set up a network system with and old Nestream DTT product and they love it, but there are many channels that are HD and those don't work. But the kids love it so they can watch and record what they are interested (obviously not the same as their parents).

So I think that EyeTV has a great market to conquer but with intelligent hardware with the right options and a software bundle that listens to users' needs.

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I loved my eye tv but when I needed help there were long delays in getting information from their support site.  Also I found that many people were giving the same error message that I was.  I described the problem to their support site and it was like they weren't listening to me at all.  All that they did basically was tell me that I needed a new one.  There were no trouble shooting attempts at all.  When so many people are having the same problem after a upgrade you would think that they would be looking for a solution.  My eye TV worked fine before the upgrade and this was not even considered before I was told that my eye tv was shot and they then offered me a twenty percent discount on a product that wasn't available to me.  My over two weed back and forth with them was a complete waste of time.  

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Genitech is just as bad (if not worse) in the customer support as Elgato was. I don't have much hope it will improve. Too bad, result is that EyeTV is more and more considered to be abandonware.

What problem do you have? The latest version of EyeTV should work without any problems with the regular version of Sierre. Maybe someone her has a solution.

 

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Hello,

You wrote that after CES 2017 will be released the new products we are waiting for years... a netstream 4T and the Eyetv 4. How much time do we have to waiting for? And what about a Nestream 4Sat with double CI slot??

I wouldn't like to consider Eyetv an abandonware since there are not any alternatives for MacOs systems.....

Edited by Rocker86

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There is an alternatieve to EyeTV.  DVBLink from dvblogic.com does everthing that EyeTV can do. And if you only need it running on a Mac then it is even Free.

 

the drawback is that it is not as sophisticated and the scheduling is basic compared to EyeTV. Also the GUI is less. Bit it is a goed lternative. For those having a NAS can have a look at TVHeadend. Also Free, good scheduling. For both aTV & IOS apps are available.

 

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On 23.1.2017 at 0:51 PM, Rocker86 said:

Hello,

You wrote that after CES 2017 will be released the new products we are waiting for years... a netstream 4T and the Eyetv 4. How much time do we have to waiting for? And what about a Nestream 4Sat with double CI slot??

I wouldn't like to consider Eyetv an abandonware since there are not any alternatives for MacOs systems.....

HI Ton,
thanks for be so active, we never say that there will be Netstream 4Sat with double CI slot, CI Slot just old fashioned technology, modern DRM Systems are requested / required and Netstream 4T was showed and demo during IFA 2016 and CES 2017, will be released before switch off of DVB-T in Germany (end march 2017), as it does not makes sense before as it only support DVB-T2 H.264 + H.265.

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@Mikyesun Although it is good to see (at last!) a reaction from someone linked to Geniatech (I suppose that form the word "moderator") but you specifically answer question not asked in this thread.

This thread is about non-response of the Company, about making promesses that are not kept, about non-communication, about not acting to Problem reports, about not delegering products (like aTV), about not repairing crippled software, about hardware that is severely crippled and more.

 

 

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On 2.2.2017 at 10:14 AM, Ton said:

@Mikyesun Although it is good to see (at last!) a reaction from someone linked to Geniatech (I suppose that form the word "moderator") but you specifically answer question not asked in this thread.

This thread is about non-response of the Company, about making promesses that are not kept, about non-communication, about not acting to Problem reports, about not delegering products (like aTV), about not repairing crippled software, about hardware that is severely crippled and more.

 

 

it is good to have such critical person in the forum, only I think it is interesting to document the progress / advertising you do for other and alternatives, which is fine for me, but please keep truth and keep productive and realistic, the / this forum is to exchange information, drive communication and sure also to challenge us.

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There is only 1 reason for me to mention other productschap and that is to help people that are the victims of your products. 

I would have no reason to do so IF Geniatech had the guts to answer people when they report problems. There is seldom anybody here. Also YOUR company is to blame because you give no serieus timeline. 

Take the aTV, in June you wrote you were beta testing, then realeqse would be end 2016, then end Januar 2017, today it is still not available.

Netstream problems, devices are marketeer for a long time but seriously handicapped. Equipes with 4 tuners but only 2 cn be used with EyeTV. Very good looking devices  but (deliberately?) not worth the money.

Homerun products, only the very, very OLD tuner can be used. The new one HDHR3-EU Cannon be used. Why, it is technically identical to the old one.

Again, give u's serieus timeline, invité people to Beta testing (who else are your testers? Colleques at company?). If you are a log time de sloper you will know that public testers are the way to get the bugs out. Apple allows door 1000 betatester, so. O problem there.

 

Not to prinses myself but I would not be surprise if I have poster more (in trying to help YOUR) customers then all of the staf of this forum together!

So it is YOU that has to start giving serious and correct information, replays to YOUR customers.

Only reason I involve myself here is because I find EyeTV the best of the 3 options and would hate it to become abandonware. This forum is here nog for about a year and all we see is few minorupdates.

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please come down, I and sure also the community appreciate your feedback, and there is sure always room to improve, pls give us some room

eyetv w/ 4 tuners we enable it for netstream 4c / 4s as a first test, base on MacOS Sierra and eyetv 3 build 7514, lets see how the experience is - if it can make to a live stage, we will watch close, anyway it relates to the community feedback.

HDHomeRun, again, is less up to us, Silicon Dust should move next steps

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2 hours ago, Mikyesun said:

eyetv w/ 4 tuners we enable it for netstream 4c / 4s as a first test, base on MacOS Sierra and eyetv 3 build 7514, lets see how the experience is - if it can make to a live stage, we will watch close, anyway it relates to the community feedback.

HDHomeRun, again, is less up to us, Silicon Dust should move next steps

You forget that the majority uses HDHR and since the Netstreams use a fully proprietary protocol which is (till now) not handed over to the largest software developers (DVBlogic, TVHeadend) meaning that the selling possibilities of Netstream (even when the 4 tunerproblem is solved) are quit small. Whereas selling possibilities of a EyeTV 3 (4 even better) are very large since of the 3 it is the most comfortable software. 

 

For Win/Linus users your hardware is less interestin. They have a wide scala of software to choose from and a wide scala of (often) cheaper hardware to use. 

 

On the aTV4 (elsewgere defined as thirdparty product). Please do nog forget that your customerbase are Mac-users and most Mac-users have an aTV,  Just the fact that you do not produce the hardware does not make a some 3rd far away product. This besides that fact that June 2016 you were in betatesting (see older messages) makes it funny that it not yet released.

The fact that the IOS apps mean that Mac has to be running is not important. All TV products that have a PC/Mac/Nas as counterpart demands that it is running. Otherwise you will have no link between recorded programs. And standalone aTV apps are long availalable but only really usefull for those not wanting TV on their main system.

 

But its your company, so do whatever you think is best.

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On 10-2-2017 at 7:16 AM, Mikyesun said:

eyetv w/ 4 tuners we enable it for netstream 4c / 4s as a first test, base on MacOS Sierra and eyetv 3 build 7514, lets see how the experience is - if it can make to a live stage, we will watch close, anyway it relates to the community feedback.

IT DOES NOT  W O R K! See my report here: 

 

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hi there,

just came across this discussion & need to agree fully with the open letter.

i gave up getting help from geniatech support - for weeks, I received only standard responses, obviously people there are not able to understand the problem (which is easy to understand, i even sent screenshots), as they recommended all the worst things (reinstalling OS or what not). problem is reproducible on all my 4 macs, even the new one.

i have spent more time trying to get useful information than with any other it product in the last years! as a matter of fact, it is so very frustrating to read through all these posts and understand that there is nothing to expect from geniatech at all.

nothing i am waiting for since announcement almost a year ago has reached any official availability (where the heck is the atv app anyway?). CES over, so what now?

this will be my last activity, watching this forum for a few more days to see if there is ANY substantial information coming through, a reliable anouncement, timeline, useful stuff.

if not, i will certainly find other products, and as written above by other frustrated user, will never come back.

very sad so far.

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